00:48 -!- mode/#ipdf [-o matches] by matches
00:48 < matches> Still can't talk
00:48 < matches> Excellent
+--- Day changed Sun Apr 27 2014
+17:10 < sulix> I finally got ipdf working on my laptop again by porting everything to OpenGL 3.1.
+17:10 < sulix> I'm so sorry about how ugly the code now is, by the way.
+18:04 -!- mode/#ipdf [+o matches] by OperServ
+18:05 < Pommers> You know what a really good feature for a PDF reader would be? The ability to have it completely borderless without menus, so you just see the page!
+18:06 <@matches> Wat
+18:06 <@matches> Well we've got that
+18:06 <@matches> We just can't read pdfs
+18:07 <@matches> Did you get much done not going to the cleanup?
+18:07 <@matches> I managed to transfer some dust from one location to another location, and then the wind blew it back in my face
+18:08 <@matches> Then I looked at Frames' proposal and despaired at how much it is actually complete and has words in it
+18:08 <@matches> I think he's onto something with his plan of actually writing things
+18:14 -!- matches changed the topic of #ipdf to: ipdf the pdf doesn't stand for pdf
+18:14 -!- matches changed the topic of #ipdf to: ipdf the pdf doesn't stand for pdf but the df stands for df
+18:14 -!- matches changed the topic of #ipdf to: Sort of
+18:15 <@matches> I need a script to auto mute me...
+18:15 < sulix> I spent basically all of today on that one commit.
+18:15 -!- mode/#ipdf [-o matches] by matches
+18:15 -!- mode/#ipdf [+o matches] by OperServ
+18:15 < sulix> Whether or not that was more useful than the cleanup remains to be seen.
+18:16 <@matches> I should look at it I guess :P
+18:16 < sulix> It compiles*
+18:16 < sulix> *but has lots of warnings.
+18:16 <@matches> It can't be worse than my tester that converts floats to floats
+18:17 < sulix> I'm pretty certain it can be and is worse.
+18:17 <@matches> However I've realised I kind of actually do need to be able to do that
+18:17 <@matches> Woah 3k+ lines
+18:17 <@matches> * 4k+ lines
+18:18 < sulix> Most of it was autogenerated, but still...
+18:18 * matches weeps for OpenGL 1
+18:18 < sulix> You don't realise how much you miss it until it's gone...
+18:19 <@matches> So what does all this stuff actually do
+18:19 <@matches> Because I could see rectangles and things just fine without it
+18:19 < sulix> Exactly the same thing as before but it works on my laptop now.
+18:19 <@matches> I see a shader program, that's obviously good
+18:20 <@matches> Actually I see code for a shader but no shader yet
+18:20 < sulix> The shaders are all #defines, I'm afraid.
+18:22 <@matches> What was wrong with your laptop?
+18:23 < sulix> It doesn't support the OpenGL compatibility mode, so --- as I was using the OpenGL 3.1 feature of "primitive restart", I had to code the entire thing in OpenGL 3.1
+18:23 < sulix> On the bright side, this paves the way for doing things like getting the GPU to use doubles.
+18:26 <@matches> Ooh
+18:27 < sulix> (also halves)
+18:27 < sulix> (halfs?)
+18:27 <@matches> Do GPUs use IEEE floats? I had a reference that seemed to be complaining they didn't
+18:27 <@matches> Although it was circa 2007
+18:28 < sulix> I don't think that there's a requirement that they internally use them, but they do read and write them.
+18:28 < sulix> A bit like how x86 processors use(d) 80 bit reals internally and rounded when reading/writing to memory.
+18:28 <@matches> Do halves have a different mantissa encoding
+18:29 <@matches> The examples given on wikipedia seem wrong
+18:30 < sulix> I think this is the canonical description: http://www.opengl.org/registry/specs/NV/half_float.txt
+18:33 <@matches> That would be before IEEE specified half (binary16) but its the same summation for the mantissa anyway
+18:33 <@matches> binary16 is (briefly) in the 2008 revised 754
+18:34 <@matches> So I think wikipedia is giving a wrong example, but I'm not confident enough to go and change wikipedia
+18:35 <@matches> Also I just realised my conversion of the mantissa to a Real is horrible
+18:35 <@matches> Oh well, it can get fixed later
+18:36 <@matches> Hopefully I can finish my fluid mechanics assignment quick enough to actually work on my progress report / proposal / thing
+18:36 <@matches> (Hah)
+18:36 -!- mode/#ipdf [-o matches] by matches
+18:37 < sulix> Yeah, I'm going to see how much Lit review I can write for tomorrow. :/
+--- Day changed Mon Apr 28 2014
+22:06 -!- mode/#ipdf [+o matches] by OperServ
+22:10 <@matches> Must find motivation to work on Lit Review at 10pm...
+--- Day changed Tue Apr 29 2014
+10:06 <@matches> Must find motivation to work on Lit Review at 10am...
+--- Day changed Wed Apr 30 2014
+13:04 <@matches> I wanted to rasterise a vector image so I could compare them at the same scale ("These look the same!") and zoomed ("This one looks crappier!)
+13:04 <@matches> But because vector graphics editor/viewers don't use pixels as units but they do when they export to a bitmap, it's difficult to actually get them to look the same
+13:04 <@matches> Before scaling
+13:05 <@matches> I guess a screenshot tool might be the best way
+13:06 <@matches> I don't know if I need to do this really
+13:07 <@matches> I guess Mechanical and Chemical engineers marking this will probably benefit from having an example
+13:07 <@matches> Doesn't everyone know the difference between vector and raster graphics
+13:07 <@matches> Where was that paper that had tux vector and rasterised
+13:10 <@matches> Ah, worth2003xr.pdf
+13:11 <@matches> If it's in a paper I guess it can go in a Lit Review
+13:11 <@matches> At least until I have something better
+13:15 <@matches> Kind of ironic that the image I am using was actually scanned first as a bitmap and then converted to vector using Trace Bitmap
+13:57 <@matches> Ah, it's actually impossible to get it to be exactly the same, because even taking a screenshot on my own screen it will then be different depending on the display of whoever reads the digital pdf
+13:57 <@matches> Oh well
+13:58 <@matches> I suppose "It looks shittier" will have to suffice without trying to make them look exactly the same before scaling
+13:59 <@matches> I have spent WAY too long making this example
+13:59 <@matches> I could have just gone "See \cite{worth2003xr.pdf}"
+16:00 <@matches> So it might be worth talking about dpi in pdf viewers and how it SUCKS
+20:17 -!- mode/#ipdf [-o matches] by matches
+21:14 -!- mode/#ipdf [+o matches] by OperServ
+21:46 <@matches> I have perpetrated XML on the codebase
+21:47 <@matches> I have grand visions of our code supporting SVGs
+21:47 <@matches> I also have grand visions of actually doing a Literature Review
+21:50 * sulix git pull's with some trepidation.
+21:52 < sulix> Never heard of pugixml before but it looks okay.
+21:55 <@matches> The W3C XML specification is pretty terrifying
+21:56 <@matches> I will feel more like I've satisfied the "Document Formats" part of the Literature Review if I say some things about it
+21:57 <@matches> Well SVG in particular
+21:57 <@matches> SVG defines a "minimum" precision of IEEE binary32
+21:58 <@matches> But there's a specification for "High Quality" viewers that have to use binary64
+21:58 <@matches> That's probably the only real thing relevant directly to our problem
+--- Day changed Thu May 01 2014
+01:23 <@matches> It's May 1st
+01:23 <@matches> This means we can no longer say "The Literature Review is due Next Month"
+01:23 <@matches> IT'S DUE THIS MONTH
+01:23 * matches freaks out
+01:23 <@matches> ... but after sleep
+01:25 <@matches> Page 12 of my Literature Review by the way
+01:25 <@matches> Is the only page I like
+16:34 <@matches> The C version of paranoia compiled for me
+16:34 <@matches> Not terribly exciting (I have an IEEE 754 compatible processor! Amazing)
+22:17 <@matches> W Kahan's website is a very interesting if slightly difficult read
+22:24 <@matches> He appears to have written this 80 page pdf in a day
+22:27 <@matches> It kind of reads like one of those religious propaganda pamphlets
+22:27 <@matches> "Java is the Work of Satan"
+22:27 <@matches> "Kernighan-Ritcie C floating-point semantics are the light"
+22:28 <@matches> But every so often he has a graph or example that makes him seem less crazy
+22:34 <@matches> "And now Java forbits you to mention or use extra-precise long double arithmetic, though IEEE Standard 754 recommends its use and over 95% of computers on desktops have it built into their hardware. You paid for it, but Java denies you its benefits."
+22:34 <@matches> Java has long double now right?
+22:34 <@matches> Although that JOP I was looking at was just 32 bit
+22:36 <@matches> Ah, java.lang.math.BigDecimal
+22:37 <@matches> "But be careful with division, because it will throw exceptions if it's like 1/3, then it will be Non-terminating decimal expansion."
+22:37 <@matches> That sounds horrifying
+22:40 -!- mode/#ipdf [-o matches] by matches
+--- Day changed Sat May 03 2014
+22:01 < sulix> My crazy idea to you would be to research p-adic number representations.
+22:01 < sulix> It's been a while, but they were mentioned a couple of times in pure maths units and seemed interesting/crazy and I can't remember much about them.
+22:28 -!- mode/#ipdf [+o matches] by OperServ
+22:29 <@matches> I will look at them, the "just use a float but with more bits until you run out of memory" doesn't seem a very well thought out approach
+22:29 <@matches> Maybe someone actually cares enough to research better ways
+22:29 <@matches> I mean, something's wrong with an idea when you can write "1/3" and have a runtime exception (re: Java BigNumber)
+22:30 <@matches> I plan to write some nasty things about Java based on Kahan's rants so as to gloss over the fact that it has BigNumber built into it and forstall the inevitable "Why didn't you use Java!"
+22:31 < sulix> I think we want to truncate to whatever the most accurate you can see at the given zoom level.
+22:31 <@matches> Yeah
+22:32 <@matches> It annoys me that XML and HTML specs don't have a PDF version
+22:32 < sulix> I've been printing to pdf for some of those things.
+22:33 <@matches> None of the links to different sections would work though
+22:35 <@matches> Specifications are thrilling
+22:35 <@matches> "How to read this specification"
+22:35 <@matches> "This specification should be read like all other specifications"
+22:35 <@matches> Oh wait
+22:35 <@matches> It actually gets better
+22:35 <@matches> Is that...
+22:35 <@matches> Humour!
+22:36 <@matches> I thought that wasn't allowed!
+22:36 <@matches> "First it should be read cover-to-cover, multiple times. Then, it should be read backwards at least once. Then it should be read by picking random sections from the contents list and following all the cross references"
+22:37 <@matches> As much as I love the idea of reading 626 pages of specification backwards...
+--- Day changed Tue May 06 2014
+00:39 <@matches> http://szmoore.net/ipdf/sam/rate-my-litreview.py
+00:39 <@matches> Tim will be thrilled!
+00:40 <@matches> I'm probably going to really regret making that
+00:41 <@matches> The regret is rising to the surface
+00:41 <@matches> It's an example of an interactive document format
+00:41 <@matches> The pixels or perish guy would approve
+00:43 <@matches> So much regret
+00:43 -!- mode/#ipdf [-o matches] by matches
+23:37 -!- mode/#ipdf [+o matches] by OperServ
+23:38 <@matches> So, I have this book called "Computer Graphics" that is pretty amazing
+23:38 <@matches> Funnily enough it has all the algorithms in it
+23:38 <@matches> For computer graphics
+23:38 <@matches> Probably should have been reading it ages ago but I thought we were worrying more about precision
+23:38 <@matches> I don't even know anymore
+23:39 <@matches> Have to read 500pg textbook on graphics, 500pg textbook on floating point numbers, 500pg PDF/PostScript standards...
+23:39 <@matches> Too many pages
+23:39 <@matches> Anyway it has a section on Octrees
+23:39 <@matches> But don't worry
+23:39 <@matches> It mentions Quad trees
+23:39 <@matches> It also actually mentions fractals
+23:39 <@matches> As a thing
+23:40 <@matches> In other news, extending the document we have at the moment to allow anything other than rectangles will be interesting
+23:41 <@matches> Did you do this on purpose? :P
+--- Day changed Wed May 07 2014
+12:32 <@matches> We need to do something about all the warnings generated by the magic OpenGL 3 stuff
+12:32 <@matches> It's making it hard to sport warnings that I actually care about
+12:33 <@matches> Like: You forgot to return a value in this function :S
+13:52 <@matches> Gah I did it again
+13:52 <@matches> auto is dangerous
+13:53 <@matches> Possibly because it's buggy
+13:53 <@matches> I can't actually see any compiler warnings at all
+17:39 <@matches> So you can almost maybe see a difference between beziers calculated using floats and doubles
+17:40 <@matches> If you squint
+17:40 <@matches> And view them on different monitors
+17:41 <@matches> Ah there we go
+17:41 <@matches> I successfully broke it
+17:42 <@matches> When you round to pixel positions it doesn't make a difference
+17:43 <@matches> But on the other hand if you calculate beziers using really big numbers they look wierd :P
+17:43 <@matches> That's important
+17:43 <@matches> Because if you have an arbitrary infinite document you might be at coordinate positions that are really big
+17:43 <@matches> Captain Obvious strikes again
+17:45 <@matches> I think I will make a video of a circle moving towards infinity
+17:45 <@matches> This probably won't help the literature view much but it's too tempting to resist
+17:46 <@matches> I gave up trying to deal with our document format so I currently just generate vector<pair<T, T> > and then map that to a bitmap :P
+--- Day changed Thu May 08 2014
+10:57 <@matches> So circle was a terrible example
+10:57 <@matches> It stays as a circle
+10:58 <@matches> Hopefully the first curve I tried wasn't just a bug
+12:31 <@matches> I think it was a bug
+13:35 <@matches> There are bezier things in ipdf/code/src/tests now
+13:57 < sulix> I am very confused.
+13:57 < sulix> It generates bitmaps of circles in varying shades of red?
+13:58 * sulix decides to actually read the code.
+14:03 < sulix> Ah: I see what it's doing now.
+14:16 <@matches> Your first comment was pretty accurate :S
+14:17 <@matches> I was trying to obtain some amazing animation of a circle that hopelessly collapsed or exploded or something
+14:19 < sulix> I'm slightly terrified that it's generating a vector of points.
+14:19 < sulix> On the other hand, it looks like the rest of the world is realising what a mistake making OpenGL 3 terrifying was.
+14:19 <@matches> Yeah that's a bit lazy
+14:19 <@matches> Although, is returning a vector optimisable?
+14:20 < sulix> In C++11 it is.
+14:20 < sulix> (But not C++98)
+14:20 <@matches> C++11 is growing on me
+14:20 < sulix> Yeah: I've found the same thing.
+14:21 < sulix> I'm a bit scared about what that means, though.
+14:21 < sulix> Maybe one day I'll think boost was a good thing, and then I'll truly be lost.
+14:21 <@matches> Hahaha
+14:21 <@matches> The lambdas remind me of Javascript :S
+14:22 < sulix> I think lambdas are one of those things that are good for you in moderation, but poisonous in large quantities.
+14:22 <@matches> Probably
+14:23 < sulix> I won't be around on Monday, btw, so I'll miss the meeting.
+14:23 < sulix> (Also I'm missing out on Codejam, sadly)
+14:23 <@matches> No!
+14:23 <@matches> (To both of those things)
+14:24 <@matches> Oh god that means I need to make double the progress
+14:25 < sulix> I spoke to Tim, he said that it might be worth cancelling the meeting altogether.
+14:26 <@matches> Haha
+14:26 <@matches> I'm not sure if I should take that as a good or bad sign
+14:27 <@matches> I'm not going great with the literature review
+14:28 < sulix> I rated a bit of it.
+14:28 < sulix> (Though there wasn't a submit button, and it took me a few goes to get through the Turing test)
+14:28 <@matches> Page 20?
+14:28 <@matches> Haha
+14:28 <@matches> The turing test defaults to the accepted answer though!
+14:28 <@matches> You have to actually change it to get it wrong
+14:29 < sulix> Yeah, I thought it was a trick question.
+14:29 <@matches> Maybe I'll give Tim a slightly less joke-worthy version of Rate My LitReview when the draft is done
+14:29 <@matches> ... when hell has frozen over...
+14:29 <@matches> Whichever comes first
+14:31 < sulix> You should read James Mickens' USENIX articles: mkdir -p vogl/vogl_build/bin/release64 && cd $_
+14:31 < sulix> cmake -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=Release -DBUILD_X64=On ../../..
+14:31 < sulix> make -j 10
+14:31 < sulix> (Also I should paste the right thing in)
+14:31 < sulix> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/people/mickens/
+14:32 <@matches> Ah yes, I will read those at some point
+14:32 * matches downloads the first one, telling himself he will not read it until working on the lit review
+14:33 * matches reads it anyway
+14:33 * sulix feels guilty about not doing lit review at the moment, too.
+14:40 <@matches> Have you heard of /read Computer Graphics by Hearn and Baker?
+14:40 <@matches> I have the ancient "In the dawn before OpenGL 1.0" version
+14:41 <@matches> There is a section mentioning "GL"
+14:41 <@matches> I don't think they use GPU anywhere, they call them "Display Rasterisers" or something
+14:42 <@matches> Display Processor
+14:43 <@matches> A Display Processing Unit is a Display Processor for a Random Scan (vector) display system
+14:43 <@matches> Input devices are interesting too
+14:44 <@matches> "Input Dials"
+14:44 <@matches> A box of variable resistors basically
+14:45 <@matches> Working with computers in the 70s/80s would have been interesting although probably just as horrible as it is today
+14:45 <@matches> But at least it would have been less "webby"
+14:46 <@matches> Where "How do I centre a div" is a deep philosophical question
+14:48 <@matches> I should probably obtain / read a newer edition of this if I want to put it in my lit review?
+14:48 <@matches> Although it is referrring to the same papers we had about Bressenheim
+15:14 <@matches> Oh my god they mention precision!
+--- Log closed Thu May 08 17:04:49 2014
+--- Log opened Thu May 08 18:56:39 2014
+18:56 -!- Irssi: #ipdf: Total of 2 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 2 normal]
+18:56 -!- Irssi: Join to #ipdf was synced in 3 secs
+19:55 < matches> Bresenham made a tutorial on rasterisation
+19:56 -!- mode/#ipdf [+o matches] by OperServ
+19:56 <@matches> Bresenham has a nice tutorial about rasterising
+19:56 <@matches> Ties in with the "Since mankind came down from the trees" angle
+19:57 <@matches> "Needlepoint or counted cross-stitch, such as that popularised by the image on a box of Whitman Sampler chocolates..."
+19:57 <@matches> I'm not sure how to relate the rasterisation stuff to the precision stuff
+19:58 <@matches> You have to make a pretty big rounding error to end up in the wrong pixel
+19:59 <@matches> Hearn and Baker mention rounding errors as being one reason why you don't want to use floats and then round them when rasterising things
+19:59 <@matches> The (bigger) reason being that floating point operations are expensive
+20:00 <@matches> They say pixels could move from the line in the DDA algorithm for long lines... I wonder how long they mean... 1e38 pixels? :P
+20:02 <@matches> I want to actually make a drawing of things that look different due to rounding errors dammit!
+20:03 <@matches> None of this "here is a sentence or two of handwaving"
+20:04 <@matches> Maybe rounding errors were a problem on computers with 8 bit floats and terrible resolution displays :P
+20:04 <@matches> Except the worse your resolution the less you'd notice rounding errors
+20:04 <@matches> Well the more you'd notice them, the less they'd happen?
+20:04 <@matches> I don't know
+20:05 -!- mode/#ipdf [-o matches] by matches
+20:30 < sulix> These were recommended: http://www.amazon.com/Forman-S.-Acton/e/B001IYTXGY/?_encoding=UTF8&tag=mollrock-20&linkCode=ur2&qid=1358713701&camp=1789&sr=8-3&creative=390957
+20:30 < sulix> (By a blog post, which turned out not to be about floating point precision, but does mention it: http://mollyrocket.com/casey/stream_0009.html )
+21:21 < matches> I'll look at them at some point
+21:22 -!- mode/#ipdf [+o matches] by OperServ
+21:22 <@matches> I'll look at them at some point
+21:22 <@matches> I sort of got bogged down explaining how lines are drawn :S
+21:22 <@matches> Graphics is complicated dammit
+21:22 <@matches> I'll probably get more done if I just write about everything no matter how irrelevant
+21:23 <@matches> Sooner or later I'll actually write something important and the rest can be appendicised
+21:23 <@matches> Hopefully
+21:25 <@matches> Oh dear, I have located some primitive form of blog
+21:26 <@matches> Well, it talks about things, so I'll reference it...
+21:26 <@matches> "The good-looking textured light-sourced bouncy fun smart and stretchy page"
+21:26 <@matches> It's generally best to not go up a directory from the page you are looking at
+--- Day changed Sun May 18 2014
+15:47 <@matches> So things are due soonish
+15:47 <@matches> :S
+20:09 <@matches> Are you alive, because I don't think I'm alive
+20:10 -!- Irssi: #ipdf: Total of 2 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 1 normal]
+20:11 <@matches> I'm feeling pretty guilty about all that work I didn't do last week...
+20:47 * sulix agrees entirely.
+22:11 <@matches> I give up
+22:11 <@matches> I will just have to face disappointment O'clock tomorrow
+22:22 < sulix> I still have to put more work in before I feel I even deserve disappointment, I think... :/
+22:23 < sulix> I made the mistake of deleting the irrelevant bits from my lit review, and now there's almost nothing left!
git.ucc.asn.au / ipdf / documents.git / blobdiff
UCC git Repository :: git.ucc.asn.au